NYTimes update on Norwegian madman: Sarah, are you watching, listening or reading?
July 24, 2011
“OSLO, Norway — The Norwegian man charged Saturday with a pair of attacks in Oslo that killed at least 92 people left behind a detailed manifesto outlining his preparations and calling for a Christian civil war to defend Europe against the threat of Muslim domination, according to Norwegian and American officials familiar with the investigation.
“As stunned Norwegians grappled with the deadliest attack in the country since World War II, a portrait began to emerge of the suspect, Anders Behring Breivik, 32. The police identified him as a right-wing fundamentalist Christian, while acquaintances described him as a gun-loving Norwegian obsessed with what he saw as the threats of multiculturalism and Muslim immigration.”
Calling Sarah Palin and Franklin Graham: can either or both of you demonstrate that this man’s beliefs differ from your own?
Will either or both of you do so?
Sarah, are you awake? Are you human? Can you feel?
Or do you think that, like Tucson, this has nothing to do with your rhetoric?
Can’t you see how much you’ve done to create a climate of intolerance and hate?
Well, maybe you can. Maybe you have. You’ve had nothing to say since the Norwegian catastrophe, but maybe you’ve at least Twittered about it, or had your Facebook ghostwriter draft a comment in your name?
Oops, guess not.
Here’s her most recent:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150246675673435
How about the rest of you “Christians?” Anything to say?
How come it’s racist, xenophobic, right wing “Christians” who go around murdering innocents in the name of their God?
When’s the last time a Buddhist slaughtered innocent people?
When’s the last time a Jew did?
Agnostics don’t leave a trail of blood behind them.
How come it’s organized religion–whether Christianity or Islam–that inspires hatred and violence?
Posted in evangelical, Joe McGinniss, Palin racism, right wing, Sarah Palin, The Rogue | 
Tags: bombs, buddhism, christianity, franklin graham, god, guns, hatred, jews, norway shootings
77 Responses to “NYTimes update on Norwegian madman: Sarah, are you watching, listening or reading?”
Sarah nor Franklin Graham care Joe. They never have and never will.
To care about others requires an emotion or a skill neither of them will ever have.
It has been a very sad day in the World today- not just in America.
For the most part I agree but???
“when’s the last time a jew did it?”
google Gaza
Excellent point. I guess when I said “when’s the last time a Jew did it?” I meant an individual who was not in a war zone, not members of the Israeli army. But your point is well taken. Thanks.
–Joe
.I often would refer to “those so-called Christians” and lump all believers of Christ in the same goopy blob of ca-ca. But, I know so very many honest, giving, good, kind, and generous in word, thought and deed that I realize there are far too many truly good Christians to be guilty by in-name-only association. I now refer to the like of Palin, Graham, Perry, Bachmann, etc., etc., etc., as dominionists since that is what they really are all about in their relentless quest to disregard the Constitution or re-frame its interpretation. I no longer will lump those in with those who I have been witness to who are walking the walk and talking the talk and mean it.
P.S… The link did not work when I tried it
Sorry about the link. My technical staff (i.e. me) didn’t get it right. Please try again.
–Joe
The 1996 Dunblane massacre was a multiple murder-suicide which occurred in the Scottish town of Dunblane. Sixteen children (5-6 years) and one adult were killed by Thomas Hamilton.
It’s not just the religious/political lunatics.
“The police identified him as a right-wing fundamentalist Christian, while acquaintances described him as a gun-loving Norwegian obsessed with what he saw as the threats of multiculturalism and Muslim immigration.”
Whether Christian, Muslim or fill-in-the-blank, there’s no nut like a religious nut. And they all want to protect their “race.” Their “Master Race.” In Sarah Palin’s case, the “rill Amer-cans.” Michael Moore’s “Bowling for Columbine” should be required viewing in all American schools — but especially in Texas . . . make that Arizona . . . wait! . . . Florida . . . Just show it to everyone! And do it in the name of Gabrielle Giffords.
I once saw the strangest thing. My husband and I were on a cross-country car trip in 1994 and were driving through Wyoming. We saw a store with the sign, “Rod’s Guns and Computers.” We thought, “boot ’em up and shoot ’em up!” But it was so incredibly sad to see our advanced technology juxtaposed with a 19th Century killing tool. Just as it was really sad to see a 20th Century killing tool (bomb Iran?) choose the ultra-right-wing-fundamentalist Christian narcissist, Sarah Palin, as his running mate.
Joe, I had the same reaction and questions when I first read about this man. I doubt Sarah or anyone of her ilk has a conscience nor the ability to relate to other human beings with compassion, and her reaction to the Tucson killings, invoking “blood libel” was proof of that.
These people are truly dangerous, especially when given a platform with which to influence others, or even celebrity status. We need to call them out every chance we get.
Thanks for doing your part, and for doing it so well!
Israeli military atrocities are different from what happened in Norway Friday. But the last time a Jew did it was February 25, 1994, when Baruch Goldstein killed 29 and injured 125. He is lionized by many West Bank settlers for what he did. The songs written in his honor are sung often, even posted on Youtube.
In 1995, when Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, Amir’s preferred choice to be Rabin’s successor – Benjamin Netanyahu – succeeded Rabin, after Shimon Peres’ somewhat short caretaker term.
The day before the attack on the summer camp for some of Norway’s most promising young liberals, the Norwegian Foreign Minister visited, and was confronted by camp attendees who were pushing for deeper government sanctions against Israel. Some reports have stated that the Norwegian Prime Minister was scheduled to attend the camp Friday, others have stated Saturday. Could this highly motivated terrorist have possibly hoped to have bagged Norway’s PM, Jens Stoltenberg?
I wrote about aspects of this on Friday. Max Blumenthal is investigating Breivik’s background in detail. Blumenthal is able to draw from Max’s background of covering right-wing eliminationist groups in the USA and abroad. Supposedly his next book is about some of these kinky tie-ins between right-wing Christians like Breivik and militant expansionist Zionism.
That Breivik is both almost a neo-Nazi and a Zionist is a bit hard for many people to digest. For example, writing early Saturday for The Jewish Journal, Rob Eshman wrote:
Go figure, indeed.
Indeed, Dusty – they don’t care! If either responds to this tragedy, they will merely gurgle some platitudes.
Those are some scary eyes….its rare to see such intensity.
This madman’s actions have un-nerved me more than any single incident in my lifetime.
Because he represents the people that lap up the hate speech and the anti-Muslim rhetoric we have increasingly seen since 9-11.
And there are lots of them.
The ability to mass murder may be independent of belief outside of it being just a “trigger” that finally allows the actions.
Very few people can actually murder as a result of exposure to hate speech.
Yet this is the inevitable result in a “climate of intolerance and hate”.
(and I have long predicted it)
what more proof of control over those you wish to influence could there be but an action such as this?
And make no mistake about it that those involved in creating that hate feel empowered by it.
But there will be no one stepping forward to admit it.
Expect the usual denials of responsibility by the usual suspects.
After all, hate IS a great thing .
It sells.
Ask fox news and hate talk radio.
It votes.
Ask the “teabags”.
In fact, I can see the letters containing marriage proposals being sent to him as I write this.
But then again blond hair and blue eyes will do that to you.
I’ve been trying to avoid this issue, for my own sanity. The debt ceiling issue is turning me into an intolerable bitch. I can’t ignore it any longer, though. The fact that the racist, gun-loving, every-man-for-himself, ends-justify-the-means, so-called “Christian” ideology of too large a portion of this country has spread to a peaceful place like Norway makes me ashamed of some of my fellow citizens. Norway’s toughest sentence is 21 years in prison. You read that right. If convicted, Breivik will be released at 53. For murdering 92 people in cold blood. I’m guessing because Norway hasn’t experienced a crime worthy of a tougher sentence.
Joe, I disagree with you labeling Breivik a “madman”. The only definition I could find was “A man who is or seems to be mentally ill.”. We can’t excuse this hatred of government and human beings as “mental illness”. Whether or not he was the lone gunman, I believe he did not act alone. The NRA, politicians urging citizens to “cling to guns and religion”, militias in Alaska, Oklahoma and elsewhere, are not all victims of some mass hysteria. These people know exactly what they’re doing. When they talk about “American Exceptionalism”, what they’re really talking about is “Dominionist (h/t themom) White Supremacy”. If they were so concerned about exceptionalism, they’d be protecting education at least as fiercely as they protect billionaires – I mean “job creators”.
Through no fault of his own, Obama has brought these people out into the light, more angry and determined than ever. He deserves another try at setting this country right, without the enormous obstruction he’s faced. Let’s hope people look at what happened in Norway and see the similarities between Breivik and some of the candidates, or even themselves.
Sorry for the long rant. Maybe I should have avoided this a little longer.
“Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims of [insert tragedy here] and their families”
Bravo Joe! You so eloquently put into words the thoughts that stream through my brain thereby offering me some validation.
Many times I have asked people if they remember the last time a Muslim knocked on their door to spread their word and religious pamphlets? I usually get the dead stare & not one has been able to answer yes.
We have had 4 visits in a month from Jehovah Witness to Mormon to two with those ‘end of the world’ flyers meant to frighten us into being saved in their churches. One was a woman my age with her little grandson carrying the flyers of doom and blood….on a Saturday when he should have been playing in his yard.
Thank you for your words.
No, it’s not a good point. Your rhetorical question is: “When’s the last time a Jew did?” as it specifically relates to the statement: “How come it’s racist, xenophobic, right wing “Christians” who go around murdering innocents in the name of their God?”
Obviously, your intended context doesn’t apply to occupied nations, acts of war, armed forces, soldiers. If it did, then the comment would render itself pointless. As you surely know, most wars have some religious/spiritual root.
I know of NO circumstance, ever, that “a Jew” committed acts of murder in the name of God, the Torah, Moses, Jesus or any other Jewish symbolism.
Indeed, the opposite is quite true. Pograms have been visited upon Jews for centuries, in every country, specifically because they were Jewish.
Certainly correct me if I’m wrong.
It’s a sure bet that if $arah injects herself into this horrific tragedy, it will be either to portray herself as a victim or to defend christianists. She lacks the capacity for self-reflection and shame. She will never examine her own statements when it comes to god ‘n guns and white people and could very well attempt to portray the killer as a recent convert to Islam. This insanity has been suggested on some of the more extreme right-wing websites. If anyone wants to see for themselves,I can provide the link.
Wow, does that bring back memories. Years ago, on a late Sunday morning, I answered the door wearing only a bathrobe and some major bed-head. Luckily for him, the dude with the pamphlets had his young daughter with him. Otherwise I’d have told him in great detail what he was interrupting. 😉
P.S. You know they use the kids for human shields, right?
Given that Israel has numerous political parties and is currently being led by Netanyahu, a conservative, why wouldn’t there be conservative minded Christian folks outside of Israel in accord with his decisions. Many would even consider him an ‘ultra’ conservative, shades of the Bush/Cheney or McCain/Palin imperialistic and nationalistic mindsets. It’s foolhardy to make generalizations about all the inhabitants of any one country, it’s all about political persuasion and the level at which those people place their religious beliefs. I am an American born liberal progressive “Conservative” Jew as opposed to being an Orthodox or Reform Jew. I have very little in common with Hassidic Jews in NY and they don’t consider Reform Jews as members of the faith. Most people seem to consider all Jews walking as one unit, tightly bound by a mutal belief in the Hebrew religion. Faith and morality often are impacted by one’s environment, upbringing and current neighborhood. The take-away for violent killings and massacres should be that it can happen to anyone, anywhere and the most common denominator is mental illness fed and fueled by intolerance, hatred and fear of other humans who think, look or act differently.
Another group who have noone’s blood on their hands are Jehovah’s Witnesses. Visiting places like the Holocaust Museum in Washington will show how they were hated and despised, persecuted, beheaded, shot by firing sqaud, lost their jobs and were otherwise ostracized for taking a stand against the Reich. They were the first victims of the camps and Hitler hated them more than the Jews because they chose to defy him and were not helpless victims like the millions he murdered in the camps and elsewhere. Signing a document renouncing their faith would have allowed them to go free. They, with the exception of very few, enmasse refused. Other churches, so-called Christians, turned a blind eye, the Vatican even signing a concordant with Hitler. The story is the same anywhere you choose to look, South Korea, Malawi, Canada (special camp like prisons for young JW’s who refused to kill), all countries of the former Soviet Union etc. On the night of Jesus’ arrest the apostles offered to defend him with their swords, with Peter going so far as assaulting a slave of the high priest, missing his head but removing his ear. If you accept the Bible’s account at Matthew 26:51,52 it says Jesus said, “Return your sword to it’s place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”
Hi Joe, forgive my poor manners. I forgot to mention I appreciate your insightful writing and I have bought your book. Thanks.
Wise words.
I differ – perhaps with you, but certainly with Joe on his take that Breivik is, as Joe puts it, a “madman.”
Max Blumenthal wrote, in the article to which I linked above, “As horrific as Breivik’s actions were, he can not be dismissed as a “madman.” [emphasis added]
“His writings contain the same themes and language as more prominent right-wing Islamophobes (or those who style themselves as “counter-Jihadists”) and many conservatives in general. What’s more, Breivik was articulate and coherent enough to offer a clear snapshot of his ideological motives.”
Is Breivik more mad than Americans who refuse to rise up and object to the monthly toll of innocent civilians killed as “collateral damage” by our drones in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen? Of course he is. But aren’t we somewhat mad too, to not find ways to stop our own murder of innocent children? They aren’t blue-eyed blonde kids like Breivik’s victims, but their souls were worth no less before we scorched them into hell.
What he did was an insane reaction to Islamophobia. So is our current foreign policy.
When I was teaching English in Korea, some of my students at Catholic University maintained that the samurai were Buddhists. I’m no historian so I can’t vouch for the accuracy of that.
My own observation is that religion is just one among many excuses used for violence, and condemning all Christians is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Lastly, the statement that “Agnostics don’t leave a trail of blood behind them” does not withstand scrutiny from either a historical or philosophical standpoint.
Actually there is a link in Israel in that they have become very right wing and racist. This has a lot to do with the attack on the flotilla. It is the particular people that have risen to power right now in their government who are the problem. Don’t waste your time calling me a antisemetic, that has no effect on me as it is BS. Besides, I am not afraid to be hated for telling the truth.
It is confusing and many believe that calling Dominionists Christians, means that all Christians are being maligned. I separate the two by calling the Dominionists Xtians. They are more minions of Satan than Christ.
I wonder if these nuts ever think that maybe god is punishing us because they are so uncaring bunch. I remember a god that was good because the america I grew up with helped people. Now with these crazies all you get is me, me, me. Until we all get back to helping each other and not letting corporations be doing there fair moral right we will never get on the right track.
I was thankfully raised by agnostics who did not believe in brainwashing their children. Hence, I was never brought to Church and have never been baptized. Religion, like politics and the events of the day, was often a discussion at the family dinner table. We would often discuss the many horrible things throughout history that were done in the name of God.
On the other hand, I frequently saw things as a child (that continue to this day) that no one else saw. People who were not there; dark shadows and even figures black as the darkest night standing near me. The kind of visions that they locked people up for in another time. As I grew into a teenager, I started reading the words in red in the New Testament and took great comfort in what I read (being intellectuals, the parents had books about all religions on the book shelves, including the bible).
As I read, I sometimes would get this warm and fuzzy feeling of love – a physical sensation from my head to my toes. Today, I call that feeling the warm fuzzies. Anyway, if anyone who claims to be a Christian would bother to read the bible, they would read that Jesus preached against the Church and instructed people to pray in secret; to do charitable acts in secret and to basically live without organized religion. And this is how the first Christians lived. And those first Christians did not kill anybody. And all men and women of good will, no matter their faith, or lack thereof, do not kill other people as this Norwegian man did. Even the Old Testament tells you not to murder anybody, but of course, that did not stop the Inquisitors or the witch burners who murdered innocents all in the name of God.
The Dalai Lama recently said it best – it is better to be a good person than belong to a religion. I sometimes think that organized religion can be a very evil thing – like the mob mentality – we are right and everyone else is wrong. They are full of hate, which of course, is a very dangerous emotion and best avoided if all possible.
My heart, my tears and all my love go out to the good people of Norway. There will be no warm fuzzies today; only sheer sorrow.
I have a regular Jehovah’s Witness lady who comes by. She’s always so sweet. I’ve have had her in the house a couple of time (it’s hot here.) I’m sure y’all are shocked by that, but in the end, only kindness matters, so on a hot day she comes inside to sit a few minutes. We don’t really discuss religion (she knows I have a church), but she does give me her pamphlets (that are recycled.)
Buddhism in Japan predates the samurai, so yes, they were Buddhists. But Buddhism technically isn’t a religion, it’s a way of life. As such, it sort of moved in alongside the Japanese ancestor and nature worship.
I always do the same thing when the Mormans or Jehovah’s knock on my door. I always invite them in to our office off of the kitchen where the computer is. I offer them a beverage of course and listen politely for awhile. Then when they indicate that I should speak as they are interested in what I have to say, I play Bob Dylan’s Jokerman for them and they have to sit there and listen to one of the best and most truthful songs ever written.
Soon thereafter, they get up and politely leave and they never come back (knock on wood). I am cursing myself here, but it has been almost three years since organized religion knocked on my door (yet I see them in the neighborhood often).
My thanks to Bob and to you too Joe. You all help the rest of us more than you will ever know.
People in power are doing what benefits them, not the people. I would not blame an entire People for what leaders do and that includes the ‘USA. My point is that Joe’s point is about an individual, not a government’s bad acts, which one can blame leader’s for but not the people they govern. Like Israel
But I would never worry about some Jewish guy shooting up Christians in NYC.
THAT is a lovely example of Christian kindness! Maybe you will convert HER!
Religion destroys! I know first hand the utter destruction of religion and it’s violence and abuse. It is EVIL!!! People use their gods and prophets as instant garbage disposals for their ugly actions and abuse.
Religion creates addicts of all kinds. Then when the addicts want to or are forced to get clean where do they go to AA another group based in a round about way on religion. There they get addicted to religion. A vicious ugly cycle of RELIGION!!!!!
People are brain washed about religion and it’s laws!!!
To compare this with Gaza shows ignorance and hated in it’s own right.
It shows a complete lack of understanding of the Palestinian -Israeli real conflict that is complicated
and very sad situation there for ALL.
Phil Munger named one example of a Jew doing a mass crazy killing but you do not find many other examples of this.
Yes there are right wing extremist Jews but there are mostly millions of peaceful Jews who just want to live their lives in peace. I can’t even believe anyone compares a conflict going back how many years, with an insane madman who kills children. This is a crime of pure hatred and insanity. Why don’t you speak out against the Palestinian who straps a bomb on their back and blows himself up in a crowded mall or restaurant. Why can’t Israel defend itself. Please don’t answer here because this entire discussion doesn’t belong here because there is no comparison sorry.
I was so sad to even see people bringing that up on Joes posting.
Its fine to discuss the state of Israels bad decisions at the right time but this isn’t it. As a reformed Jew who is very pro Israel, I do not agree with everything they do. But when you compare that to this, I do wonder about your own hatred of Jews in making the comparison. People who claim that anti-semitism is never involved are wrong. I experienced anti-semitism directly several times in this country
up and I empathize and stand up for Muslims being attacked here.
I meant to say while growing up, my family and myself were the target of blatant anti-Semitism. There ARE many who hate Jews like they hate Muslims and these hateful people just love the anti-Israel hate coming from liberals in America. Please be careful in your comparisons if you truly are NOT one of these people.
baruch goldstein, 1994 american doctor shoots up mosque full of Palestinian worshippers, kills 30
i am not here to quibble over who shoots who.
extremists are scary no matter who they are
this Oslo event reminds me that even the most normal looking people harbor evil.
From Wikipedia page on the Samurai:
The philosophies of Buddhism and Zen, and to a lesser extent Confucianism and Shinto, influenced the samurai culture. Zen meditation became an important teaching due to it offering a process to calm one’s mind. The Buddhist concept of reincarnation and rebirth led samurai to abandon torture and needless killing, while some samurai even gave up violence altogether and became Buddhist monks after realizing how fruitless their killings were. Some were killed as they came to terms with these realizations in the battlefield.
Dear Carollt,
Thanks for your comment that expresses my thoughts on this and may I add that I agree with the Dalai Lama, It is better to be a good person that to belong to a religion!
Jesus & God have been hijacked by greedy lying sociopaths and the sheeple are afraid to question their “authority”.
Two of my three sons were very young when their Catholic school priests molested them. One was actually abducted then let go after a failed attempt and the other sadly was only 7 yrs old and groomed at catechism class to spend time with the teacher. The damage to the children of the world by the Catholic church is overwhelming and it continues with the coverup. But this week, thankfully, a brave pol in Ireland called the Pope out for the coverup!!!
I bring this up here for this comment because we are surrounded with this psychosis of RELIGIOUS & PATRIOTIC bull and we watch leaders who say & do nothing along with the media who don’t report the world evidence of the problem.
My bottom line and overly simplistic conclusion is that the brains of these right wing nuts in any religion or country or political fringe, are not evolving and are still full of fear.
There are studies and I have read of a few, that actually prove that the part of the brain that is very old (neanderthal) is larger in fear based people than in people who are less fearful and more positive and tend to be liberal.
I see these fools as, not madmen although they seem to be out of their minds, but clinging to their fears because it feels more comfortable. The acceleration of their beliefs to action could be helped along with easy access to violence in media, others they can commiserate with through internet etc. and again it’s a bottom line thing for me, the bully atmosphere people seem to like now. Look at the actions of people like Gov. Christie NJ who is almost praised for being a bully. Bully Murdoch, bully Allen West, so many who set the tone of “it’s ok to be a bull” The rich & famous like S.Palin, a bully.
I bet you all could come up with more. The mess we’re in is due to banksters who are big bully s. GOP, BIG BULLYS.
When I was at MU in Columbia, MO in the 70’s there was a very visible sign advertising “GUNS, LIQUOR, AMMO”. I always felt that was cause for alarm, but you’re right–there’s something more ominous about the addition of computers to the mix!
His eyes are scary, but I’ve seen recent photos of Michele and Sarah with even scarier eyes. And Angle.
I think an interesting point is that WOMEN don’t do these things, do we? We value life more or something. I’m sure there are rare cases of a woman murdering more than her spouse or her children, but the rampage that takes out strangers and other children is beyond what a woman would do. I hope, because otherwise, I expect one of the above named gun-loving, Christ-proclaiming POTUS wannabes may be next on the news.
I have heard and like the term “Christianists.”
I agree Sue. Did want to point out that after reading responses to this tragedy several Norwegians point out that despite the 21 year maximum sentence the detainee is reviewed along with the crime and often are not released after 21 years. If the crime is even close to one of this magnitude after review the prisoner is not released after 21 years and most likely will spend the rest of his days incarcerated.
I am bone tired of the fight. I run a summer camp that teaches children and teens about world cultures, tolerance and understanding. We have had the fight of our lives to stay afloat this year. Without a miracle, we are done this summer. We started the summer after 9/11 full of hope. While beaten down, I will never regret the effort.
I grew up Catholic and went to church most of my life. However, when it became clear that so few Christians walked the walk, I could no longer justify the weekly ritual to my five children. I can only hope that they have seen humanity in action by the way we live our lives.
My family has hosted over 20 exchange students, two Norwegians (one in Oslo and one in Tromso). My son was an exchange student there, in Bodo. Vi lykke Norge! (We love Norway) Based on Norwegian culture, I can’t imagine this happening there. And, yet, it has.
I don’t know what it would take to wake weary Americans up to fight back. But, my voice is frankly exhausted.
Signed, A very tired Peacemaker and Rotarian
Evil comes from the devil. If you believe in God, then belief in the devil comes with that. God does not aspire individuals to kill: The devil makes ’em do it (and no, I’m not trying to be facetious). With apologies to Flip Wilson…
He is absolutely pro-Israel. He is also a supporter of Dutch politician Geert Wilders, whose PVV party is populated by hard line, right-wing Christian extremists. They are anti-Muslim, pro-Israeli and against big government and regulations. Sound familiar?
Read the story below: $arah Palin is also a GREAT BIG FAN of Geert Wilders and his party. Below is my tweet regarding the matter. If you use twitter, please feel free to retweet. People need to know about the Palin connection to Geert Wilders.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Breivik supports radical right-wing Dutch Pol @GeertWilderspvv. So does @SarahPalinUSA. http://t.co/SpR5XGo MUST SEE: http://twitpic.com/5uvz3a/full
Twitter link: https://twitter.com/#!/KatieAnnieOakly/status/95155598152310784
Only a few public mentions of the fact that this murderer was a Christian and it won’t be long before some bozo will be twisting it all into an attack on Christianity.
As I lived in Korea and Japan for years, I saw Buddhism practiced as a religion as it has been for centuries. Of course it’s a philosophical system too, as are Christianity, Shinto. animism, etc. Confucianism might be described a purely an ethical system, rather than a religion, but Buddhism is a religious faith. These are complex topics that can’t be covered in a few sentences on a blog.
Interesting, but remember to take everything you read on Wikipedia with a grain of salt.
As I replied to Lisa B, these are complicated topics. The history of warrior monks in Asia is long and sometimes brutal.
Even today there’s a sect of Buddhist monks in Sri Lanka who are forcefully advocating for the government to wipe out the Tamil Tigers using military force. How they reconcile this with ahimsa, I don’t know.
Amen.
The problem is fundamentalists, not religion per se. IMHO. And I don’t know if there are religions that don’t spin off these radical fundamentalists. I think the mainstream of all religions treat these crazies like an embarassing relative in the basement and don’t call them out enough. I have friends who are ministers (mainstream, liberal) and I’ve tried to talk about the threat of fundies and I think it’s a subject that embarasses them like I suddenly had gotten weird myself. If the fundies get their way the mainline religions will disappear.
One of these days “fundamentalist” will be a dirty word not uttered in polite company. It already is for many.
… but most of them hear the voice of their “god”…
Mr. McGuiniss, for an author of your calibre, your reply of “I guess” does not suffice.
Please explain, and I shall listen to your reasoning… carefully.
…Ohmy… misspelled your name… so sorry!
I’m sorry you feel my description of Baruch Goldstein revealed some kind of anti-Semitism. I assure you, Dr. Who, that my antipathy toward militant expansionist Zionism is shared with hundreds of thousands of Jews worldwide, many of whom are my friends, colleagues and compatriots in the search for peace, and the struggles against the negative effects of all fundamentalisms.
About 75 of my Jewish friends have found themselves on this list.
I’m sure Joe knows lots of people on it too.
… yes, because it rhymes, accurately, along with islamists and zionists, with terrorists…. all parts of the paternalistic religions stemming from the same testosterone suffused ideas of having to be dominant of all others…
no way,would she ever on facebook use the term..”don’t go wobbly…”
…does the word “rationalization” sound a familiar note?
… oh, the power of the ancient, limbic part of the brain… the fight or flight impulse…
It overcomes the more advanced reasoning skills of the modern brain precisely because it is more ancient and thus more deeply ingrained.
This is where racism, religions and tribal xenophobias thrive.
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Agreed! People with addictive personalities do not know how to do anything in moderation.
Dr Who:
All of us who “Think” know the difference between governments and “the people” who for the most part just try to “get by”, to “make a living”, and who have the same joys and woes as many others on this planet.
…your have my admiration…
Now we have Gryphen at Immoral Minority saying Sarah is the same as Hitler because Hitler didn’t directly kill 6 million Jews. That just goes too far. I agree her rhetoric is wrong and can cause violence. But to say she is Adolph Hitler is not only stupid and wrong, it insults millions who suffered through the Holicaust. In the Holicaust millions were gased or burned alive. Soap was made from the skin and bones of Jews. I’m shocked today to see the hypocrisy of some liberals and I’m liberal. When we say this insane act is the same as Gaza or Sarah is the same as Hitler, we are just as bad as the ignorant hate filled people on the far right. How full of hate do you have to be to be so irrational in making these insane claims. I can’t believe how insensitive and stupid people are being to the millions of Jewish liberals in our country who vote Democratic! Extremism in any form is dangerous and we go way way off the deep end in making these comparisons. We lose credibility too and our opportunity to educated undecided Americans about the dangers of Christian Dominionism. I can’t take Jesse Griffin seriously after this. I just can’t.
I have totally lost respect of his judgement and critical thinking skills. Won’t Sarah be happy. Her biggest critics making irrational, over the top comparisons and losing readership because of it.
Why is this addressed to Sarah? She has nothing to do with him or the Norway situation. She doesn’t advocate violence. Stop incriminating her.
Once again – outside of war time, occupation, military forces, organized armed conflict convention.
Time, place and context – aside from the unquestionably crazy extremist man – Hebron, West Bank. Occupied militarized environment of ongoing violent conflict.
The man was an “extremist Israeli”, not an extremist Jew. He was in Israeli military uniform, intentionally; he perpetrated this horror in the name of Palestinian-Israeli conflict, not God.
“The city of Hebron has been the site of numerous acts of violence from both sides in the context of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories and remains an important locale in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Jewish communities there are considered to be illegal by the UN under the Fourth Geneva Convention. However, Israel disputes that territories such as Hebron are occupied (as they are not the sovereign territory of any nation), and claims that because the Geneva Convention provides for retention of territory for security purposes, its settlements are legal.”
This is more analogous to Jeremy Morlock’s actions in U.S. military uniform, and the Mỹ Lai/My Khe massacres during Vietnam (347–504 unarmed women, children and elderly, raped, beaten, and tortured). Obviously, these men were not acting under military sanction.
Regardless, crazy, no matter how you slice it.
David Applebaum: American-born Israeli physician and rabbi, ER/trauma service chief of Shaare Zedek Medical Center (Jerusalem), father of six children. Applebaum and his 20-year old daughter were killed on the eve of her wedding, by a Palestinian suicide bombing at a cafe in Jerusalem on September 9, 2003.
Dr. Appelbaum had just returned from New York, where he addressed a symposium on terrorism marking the second anniversary of the September 11 attacks on the United States. Closing remark: “From one moment to the next, we never know what will happen in the ER, but it’s in Jerusalem that real reality occurs.”
Appelbaum trained both Arab and Jewish physicians and nurses for his system of urgent care centers so that there would be staffing on the holy days of both religions.
Ah well, I give up. Have it your way. Damn crazy extreme Jews. And Israelis. Israel sucks. All those Jews should be rounded up and deported back to Europe and America and where ever they came from and the country given to Fatah and Hamas in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt to fight over.
Middle Eastern Jews can stay, but only if they convert to Islam. Israeli Christians and Muslims can stay, if they’re ethnically Middle Eastern, and the Christians convert. Anyone who looks black will be deported to Somalia. All non-believers will be deported regardless of ethnicity. America and Great Britain will agree to take everyone in.
All women will remain; under the new government they have no rights, travel within or across borders will be restricted without an adult male escort. A shortage of burka and acceptable head coverings can be expected.
I agree. See my response up above. The guy wasn’t acting as a crazy extremist Jew, he was acting as a crazy extremist Israeli. In uniform. In Gaza. He was making a crazy violent point, but it wasn’t about Jewishness, anymore than Morlock’s violence was about Southern Baptists.
This is what I think: there’s a growing number of noble-intended Westerners (particularly American) who fail to recognize and acknowledge alarming anti-Jewish sentiment in their entrenched commitment to support Palestine. It’s really disturbing. All good intentions and heart-felt passion stirred to action by injustice. Righteous humanitarian response to indignity and violence against the innocent. Very hard to disagree with, for any thinking person.
The reality is that all Israelis are not Jewish, although it a Jewish nation. But it’s not a holy war for Israel, it’s nationalist. Israel is a westernized country with many ethnicities. Whereas, Palestine IS Muslim and Islamic. It is THE national religion in an aggressive tribal culture with few civil “rights” and centuries-old traditions and behaviors with no equivalent in the western world, like Jihad and the glory of martyrdom. It’s comparing apples and oranges.
It is not necessary to be anti-Jewish or anti-Israel to support Palestinian dominance.
The Munger response is to ignore explaining _why_ he thinks what he does, instead defaulting to, “See, here’s a bunch of people who agree with me…” Yes. There’s people who share that viewpoint. It’s not much of a credential for me; any of us can dial up 75 people who share our perspective.
See, I don’t mind a different opinion. I just want to know why. Empirically. I like to hear what other people think and I like hearing ideas new to me.
I get it, Dr. Who. I hear you. I agree.
Wow, Dr. Who – I read that post at IM and that was not my takeaway at all. Gryphen said no such thing as Sarah being the same as Hilter. The comparison he offers is to suggest that people can and should be held accountable for their words and actions, even if they themselves didn’t pull the trigger. He’s saying Sarah is just as culpable for her own words, and the fallout that results, as Hitler was for his. That does not suggest that the ‘crimes’ of each are equal.
no doubt it has something to do with the guy needing to shot off his gun.
i seriously believe that because i never understood the mentality of owning multiple guns unless you had some secret fantasy………
and what about the insanity of the guy claiming he needs guns to fight off the government when they come “to get him ” and his neighbors??
as if a SINGLE helicopter gun ship wouldnt wipe out the entire neighborhood in a few minutes…
its all insanity…scary stuff and part of this nations politics.
and getting much worse.
I agree Aqua Rose. Dr. Who needs to calm down and stop seeing enemies in every person who doesn’t agree with him.
Not sure about the atmosphere of the ’70s, but Columbia is now a pretty liberal town (in a sea of rural red Missouri). The Liquor, Guns, and Ammo sign is a fixture at Shakespeare’s Pizza downtown.
Now I just love it! Someone has to go on ANOTHER blog to bitch about someone’s blog?
Troll, much?
He is comparing her to Hitler b/c of her censorship, her propaganda films, her “Crosshairs” on Dems or anyone really who she doesn’t like, she releases the hounds of hell….on them.
Go bitch at Gryphen.
But yeah, she is Hitler in a skirt.
Oh gee…another Fairy tale troll named Teresa…
Hello! Today in the news there are several links to your queen! Pamela Geller, and maybe Joshua Livestro. this madman was a fan of “atlas shrugs” and radical islamophobia as well a Dominionist Right wing “Conservatives”. If I were you honey, I would be very afraid…next ties directly maybe directly to the your queen or Murdoch himself?
Oh she doesn’t advocate violence?
Ummmm putting “CROSSHAIRS” on Dems house and telling people to “don’t retreat reload” isn’t advocating violence?
Taking a pic of Joe McGinnis and posting it on her facebook isn’t advocating violence?
Oh honey maybe you need a Baileys to see the light.
Your queen is nothing worse the the wicked witch of the wizard of oz! ” I’ll get you my pretty and your little dog too”!
Grow up.
Fairy tale troll. No one believes your bs especially here 8)
Stop burying your head Teresa!
Dr. Who, I didn’t read the post, so can’t comment on the content. Comparing Sarah to Hitler certainly isn’t original. I agree with you; it’s perfectly clear and simple. She’s not “Hitler in a skirt.” She’s an evangelical charismatic preacher, a Tammy Faye Baker. At best, a stupider-not-as-clever Eva Peron, for about 10 minutes. She’s a frickin’ Hostess Twinkie.
What _is_ comparable is the environment that led to Hitler’s initial rise to power. Definitely see some parallels there. Poverty, fear, unpredictable world changes, sudden loss of wealth, finding the public pulse and channeling passion and fear to an identifiable easy-to-accept cause, creating an outlet for all that emotion of hatred and fear through commitment and action.
Keep the faith, Dr. Who. It’s inevitable that eventually this crap will crescendo and burn itself out and we’ll have some period of rationality, sanity and calm.
But in the meantime, rest assured that there’s a bunch of us as alarmed and dismayed as yourself.
Sounds like a couple of you missed your naptime…
Our family lived in Oslo in 1962-63 when my dad, a LtCol in the USAir Force was stationed at NATO headquarters. It was a wonderful time for our family and I have great love for Norway and Norwegian people. I remember several times with my siblings being confronted by a group of Norwegian kids in our neighborhood who threw rocks at us, yelling “Amerikaners go home!”. It was the first time I grasped the concept of being “the other”. Kids can be cruel and I’m sure their parents remembered the German occupation vividly, so maybe that’s what it was about. Norway has opened its doors so much more since the 60’s; there will always be those who fear the changes it brings.
Agreed. Call them dominionists, not Christians. And call the killer in Norway a cultural Christian, but, as he admits in his manifesto, he DOES NOT believe in God or Jesus Christ, so technically he is not a Christian. Not that some Christians don’t do terrible things – but this man is not one of them.